Burdale Tunnel

Somewhere to discuss existing or historical buildings/structures etc on the line
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E&W Lucas
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Re: Burdale Tunnel

Post by E&W Lucas »

Wildebeeste wrote: Perhaps you would give us the benefit of your ideas on what "you" would do in "our" situation and then let "us" evaluate your ideas?

Oh good, I enjoy a challenge!

A few musings then...

The business plan seems to be tapping up EYCC for money. Understandable, but that limits your options on the route. The more scenic half is in NY.

You're marketing yourselves as the "Wolds" railway, so you really ouight to be on the section of the line that's actually in the Wolds.

South of Fimber, it's a pretty bland landscape. Accessing any length of that route will presumably involve buying what looks to be decent arable farming land. Stations on that section are private dwellings, which poses obvious difficulties.

Work on the assumption that you will not be able to cross any sort of road. Forget real world risk. An ABCL at Fimber, with the train bought to a stand until it has operated, presents no risk to anyone. But you're dealing with the health and safety industry, so common sense doesn't come into it.

I'd target the Fimber - Burdale section, hoping to get the landowner on board with the benefits of the project. If that doesn't work, hope to get political leverage from the council. Forget the original fimber station site. Keep it as a car park, which you will need anyway. Build a new station, ie platform and wooden hut, on the Burdale side of the road. Same at the other end. Have a very long term aim of building a more impressive and permanent structure, should visitor numbers ever reach those that you're aiming for. Build a visitor centre at Burdale, to add to the experience. (see next para).

This scheme needs to offer something apart from a train journey, as that is never likely to be long enough to generate much interest in itself. Even if you only ever end up with a mile of line, you can turn that into something good, if you use a little imagination. If those behind this project haven't visited/ talked with the WHHR, they really ought to. They've made a fantastic childrens' attraction, with only a token railway journey. It could offer an alternative model for you, certainly if it is impossible to get access to a decent amount of formation.

The Northampton & Lamport reminds me of your line to some extent. Stations obliterated, and bounded by roads that they will never be able to cross (and I've never heard them suggest that they would). They've not created a tourist industry in a non - tourist area though.
MikeE wrote:I have to say Mr Lucas, you are certainly determined in your attempts to discourage and disillusion everyone in this venture, you are the YWR equivalent to lord Haw Haw.
If you want to get people to support your project, you need to keep what's being said realistic.
MikeE
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Re: Burdale Tunnel

Post by MikeE »

I was under the impression that this was merely a forum for people to express their ideas and views, I didnt realise all the future plans had been published in concrete on here, I certainly have'nt seen them.
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dodger
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Re: Burdale Tunnel

Post by dodger »

E&W Lucas wrote:
Wildebeeste wrote: Perhaps you would give us the benefit of your ideas on what "you" would do in "our" situation and then let "us" evaluate your ideas?

Oh good, I enjoy a challenge!

A few musings then...

The business plan seems to be tapping up EYCC for money. Understandable, but that limits your options on the route. The more scenic half is in NY.

You're marketing yourselves as the "Wolds" railway, so you really ouight to be on the section of the line that's actually in the Wolds.

South of Fimber, it's a pretty bland landscape. Accessing any length of that route will presumably involve buying what looks to be decent arable farming land. Stations on that section are private dwellings, which poses obvious difficulties.

Work on the assumption that you will not be able to cross any sort of road. Forget real world risk. An ABCL at Fimber, with the train bought to a stand until it has operated, presents no risk to anyone. But you're dealing with the health and safety industry, so common sense doesn't come into it.

I'd target the Fimber - Burdale section, hoping to get the landowner on board with the benefits of the project. If that doesn't work, hope to get political leverage from the council. Forget the original fimber station site. Keep it as a car park, which you will need anyway. Build a new station, ie platform and wooden hut, on the Burdale side of the road. Same at the other end. Have a very long term aim of building a more impressive and permanent structure, should visitor numbers ever reach those that you're aiming for. Build a visitor centre at Burdale, to add to the experience. (see next para).

This scheme needs to offer something apart from a train journey, as that is never likely to be long enough to generate much interest in itself. Even if you only ever end up with a mile of line, you can turn that into something good, if you use a little imagination. If those behind this project haven't visited/ talked with the WHHR, they really ought to. They've made a fantastic childrens' attraction, with only a token railway journey. It could offer an alternative model for you, certainly if it is impossible to get access to a decent amount of formation.

The Northampton & Lamport reminds me of your line to some extent. Stations obliterated, and bounded by roads that they will never be able to cross (and I've never heard them suggest that they would). They've not created a tourist industry in a non - tourist area though.
MikeE wrote:I have to say Mr Lucas, you are certainly determined in your attempts to discourage and disillusion everyone in this venture, you are the YWR equivalent to lord Haw Haw.
If you want to get people to support your project, you need to keep what's being said realistic.
What you say is spot on, the nail has been hit squarley on the head, the section from burdale to the opposite side of the road at sledmere/fimber holds the most potential, no level crossings to reinsatate, just a few small bridges, I know mr lucas tends to "say what he thinks" which is no bad thing, some people may not like this approach but you have to admit it makes sence.
Richard Bond - willing volunteer
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AlanL
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Re: Burdale Tunnel

Post by AlanL »

"Work on the assumption that you will not be able to cross any sort of road. Forget real world risk. An ABCL at Fimber, with the train bought to a stand until it has operated, presents no risk to anyone. But you're dealing with the health and safety industry, so common sense doesn't come into it. "

The first sentence smacks of defeatism.The proper course of action is to find out from the relevant authorities what their attitude to the idea of a road crossing is and then work back from that starting point.
NOBODY (as far as I am aware) has suggested an ABCL (Automatic Barriers Controlled Locally) crossing. They are fanastically expensive to commision and maintain and are fraught with risk because motorists will try to beat them.Manual gates worked from the ground (not a signalbox) are cheap and virtually risk free, and in the case of ours at Darley Dale the actual gates were installed in one day, not counting the road surface.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36759493@N07/5040001638/
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E&W Lucas
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Re: Burdale Tunnel

Post by E&W Lucas »

But the WHR was never formerly closed... different situation sadly.
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AlanL
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Re: Burdale Tunnel

Post by AlanL »

It was completely lifted though so it could hardly have grandfather rights? What about the Sheringham level crossing? That line was formally closed and lifted.
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E&W Lucas
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Re: Burdale Tunnel

Post by E&W Lucas »

AlanL wrote:What about the Sheringham level crossing? That line was formally closed and lifted.
Been covered on here before. It's only allowed to be used on a limited number of occasions per year. 12 from memory.
AlanL wrote:It was completely lifted though so it could hardly have grandfather rights?
You mean that you didn't know about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddNiJUEt ... re=related

and at least one other LC in Porthmadog, plus the flat crossing over the NR line?

The WHR had an "Abandonment Order", whatever that is, and was only lifted after the govt. requisitioned the track. The statutory powers remained in place. Grandfather rights again.

I actually agree with what you said earlier. The most sensible starting point for your group is to get a definitive answer re. Fimber, certainly before you lay a single piece of ballast south of there.
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AlanL
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Re: Burdale Tunnel

Post by AlanL »

"Been covered on here before. It's only allowed to be used on a limited number of occasions per year. 12 from memory."

Indeed it has been covered but it is a level crossing irrespective of how many times it is used.

"The WHR had an "Abandonment Order", whatever that is, and was only lifted after the govt. requisitioned the track. The statutory powers remained in place. Grandfather rights again."

The conventional meaning of Grandfather Rights says that if a piece of equipment was in use (such as a signal) before new standards were implemented and it doesn't conform with those standards then it can remain in place until it requires replacement when the replacement must be to the new standard.
If the railway has been lifted the fact that a piece of equipment existed before it closed in no way entitles you to reinstate it "as was".
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E&W Lucas
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Re: Burdale Tunnel

Post by E&W Lucas »

AlanL wrote: If the railway has been lifted the fact that a piece of equipment existed before it closed in no way entitles you to reinstate it "as was".
It's reinstated to meet modern requirements, rather than as was, but it's the right for it to be there in the first place that remains.

After I first saw what was happening in Porthmadog about 4 years ago, I asked some seriously knowledgeable people if it would have any relevance for Pickering. Not for the purposes of a full blown extension, more for access to pastures new for stock storage. The answer came back that unfortunately it doesn't, as they've grandfather rights, and we don't.
Ricgough

Re: Burdale Tunnel

Post by Ricgough »

Interesting debate!

Seriously though - the Tunnel is well goosed (buggered)..

Reckon YWR should set their sights on making a modest difference over the meduim term - The big picture will change with time.

Think NYMR in 1975 - now.

Get a couple of miles, be a success and see where that leads.

believe me - a 2m sustainable railway is always going to be better off in the long term than a 20m line run at a defecit, with massive infrastructure renewal to deal with to just keep pace.

Helston just won Heritage railway of the year with a platform, a bridge, 1/2m and a DMU.

They have built everything from nowt having leased a length from a local estate. 3 years ago they were on Driffonline telling us it could be done....

....they've just proved it!


Took them 6 years.

If YWR could get 2m between Burdale and Kellythorpe (E+Y should Tell Garton and Little Driff folk they're not woldspeople- but then he's never been there to know ! ) , a couple of their own loco's in the next 10 years then that would be a real success and in the greater scheme something to be really proud of.
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