Something scary at Pickering

[ryedale lad]

Pickering Bridge 7 11 January 2012

[AndyB]

And whats even scarier is that they haven't completely decided what is going back in, concrete pipes or otherwise. Lets hope the floods don't come!!!!!!

[Turnip Town]

Is the bridge original from opening in 1836 and was it really corroded and well sought into ?

The thing that intrigues me is that when you look at, say, the previous bridge 30, it never looked as if it ever had any maintenance done on it for a long time whenever I passed over or near it. Not that I am knocking the efforts of the NYMR permanent way and civil engineering staff, but sometimes you see maintenance staff either rigging up scaffolding (yes, expensive I know) or using a cherry picker cum crow's nest to access the underside for shotblasting and repainting.

I'm not a civil engineer but have done a few years general fabrication and welding and know that steel structures left outside and unprotected from the elements will deteriorate unless periodically cleaned and repainted. I imagine there is also a minefield of health & safety legislation and insurance requirements to comply with when embarking on bridge maintenance, particularly at any great height, but does that outweigh the costs of further corrosion and perhaps sooner than otherwise necessary heavier repairs or replacement ?

Also, unless one hires contractors I accept that finding suitably experienced and qualified volunteers among the rank and file of an organisation to hold back the tide of corrosion might be a problem. Having said that, I was impressed by some of the bridge repair and preventative maintenance work that was carried out on at least one of the bridges on the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway's extension to Broadway in the past year or two.

[61638]

And whats even scarier is that they haven't completely decided what is going back in, concrete pipes or otherwise. Lets hope the floods don't come!!!!!!

As far as I'm aware that's not true, and I don't believe they would have started the work if it was the case! Concrete pipes (i.e. culverting) was looked at and ruled out a long time ago. It is going to be concrete beams, but first the abutments have to be rebuilt to take them.

It has been reported that there was a slight delay caused b the presence of Lampreys in the stream (these are a protected species) but construction of the abutments has now started according to reports on the NYMR forum

[E&W Lucas]

Also, unless one hires contractors I accept that finding suitably experienced and qualified volunteers among the rank and file of an organisation to hold back the tide of corrosion might be a problem. Having said that, I was impressed by some of the bridge repair and preventative maintenance work that was carried out on at least one of the bridges on the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway's extension to Broadway in the past year or two.

A belated Happy New year to you all.


BR 30 had been looming for longer than you realise, and the probems went a lot deeper than a bit of supeficial rust on the non - structural bits you could see from the train. The track was slewed so that is was central over the main girder about 20 years ago, thus easing the strain on the structure. Even then, it was clearly understood that this was not a permanent solution. Similar structures on the EVL have/ are being replaced, and have had severe restrictions on them for a while.

There's no point in spending out on maintenance for something that's slated for renewal. If you look elsewhere on the line, you will see evidence of preventative measures being put in place.

[AndyB]

I believe that the NYMR infrastructure has played second fiddle to running expenses for large locos over the past 10 years or so, and this has coincided with increased running at the beginning and end of the year which has effectively decreased the time available for maintenance in a lot of cases. There are a lot of steel bridges on the line, and I can think of several that will have had minimal paintwork in the last 40 years (Including the Pickering station bridge), if at all.
I remember working with the York Group volunteers to replace the rivetted rotten steel cross beams and paint the bridge below Skelton tower in the 70s (Bridge 17?), it took many weekends in the winter and a lot of hard slog to complete the job, and the only paid contractors were the truck drivers that delivered the stone ballast to the site.
A few volunteers can really make a difference but they have to be encouraged by the upper echelons who should also raise the profile and importance of this type of work. It may not be possible to stop the inevitable rot but a bit of hard graft can certainly go a long way towards delaying it, until more funds are available. (But only if the line is closed where neccesssary to allow this to happen).

The bridge 30 "up-side" steelwork was known to be in poor condition after the hand-over from BR, so following removal of the double track, the re-aligned single track was slewed at both ends of the bridge to line up with the waybeams on the down-side. As Nigel Trotter remarks in his book about the bridge - It was strengthened in 1908 for heavier locomotives, but this was prior to the later engines with a higher axle loading such as the 165 ton Gresley A4, which fitted completely within the original 90 ft steel span!

[E&W Lucas]

I believe that the NYMR infrastructure has played second fiddle to running expenses for large locos over the past 10 years or so,

I'm intrigued by this...

The last 10 years has finally seen a realisation that the place has to be self sufficient in locos, and that the overhaul backlog does actually have to be tackled; a very expensive and time consuming process. There is never going to be enough money to go round, and there is no income at all without a loco on the front of the train. The 1990s were a case of "living off the fat" - running 3672, 2253, 30926 etc, but without the means existing to keep them in traffic. At least the move is towards sustainability now.

As for size - you need big locos! 4MT's are perfect for the branch, but get hit hard on the unavoidable 7 coach trains. 5MT plus is ideal. If you use small locos, they wear out faster. Yes, the A4 is overkill, but it doesn't do that many miles, so can hardly be blamed for the infrastructure bill.

Overall, I think the state of the track has improved considerably over the last few years.

[Ricgough]

Plenty of scary stuff at Pickering - seeminglly more-so for network rail at Grosmont.....

Nice to see the NYMR crew back after their little quiet spell.

Absence nowt to do with a rather embarrassing "shunt" at all?

So, you're saying you're now "sustainable" in terms of loco's - I do hope that means investment in skills to keep them running past 2020. A discouragement of protectionsim amongst some of the old guard? Doubt it, but I'll be the last to criticise if that is the case.

Of course I would doubt certain individuals ever accepted that was the case in the first place. but hey, big engines, long lines are great for volunteer morale., and the babyboomer - ex trainspotters.....

You've got 10-15 years left of any significant marketplace (volunteer and customer-base) with experience of mainline steam and our industrial past. Be it carriage and loco owners, those with experience of heavy engineering etc....

I see a resource crisis looming at many of the larger lines and it is genuinely worrying.

Active participation of many current, key regulars will disappear very quickly from very soon. This is a big problem for your contemporaries. Think about beyond your own lifespan - your monuments to the past can carry your name if you actually embrace the future.....

you can of course quote your apparently underused prefab "school" at grosmont, which is more than many have, but that alone won't stem the tide. The only way is to trust lads and lasses with big machines and expensive materials on a sector-wide basis, knowing full well there will be occasional mistakes made. Let them watch you first, then give them control under supervision for the time you have left - it is the only way suficcient experience will be passed on. Otherwise, you'll be lying on your deathbed whinging about how the youth simply don't understand the ways of the past - your Kingdom will fall. The magazines seem to be full of complaints that the knowledge and attitude of the younger recruits is not up to standard - but it seems to me you have to find a way to work with what you have. Their interest is more likely to be based around volunteering as a leisure pursuit rather than a semi- continuation of a past working life though, it is gap which needs to be understood. Leisure pursuits can bear hallmarks of a carreer, but this is something which needs to be nurtured. Also, there is a cultural difference between generations - people (potential recruits) are less comfortable with certain aspects of traditional industrial life in general these days.

This isn't a NYMR-specific point to be fair it is an HRP point in general. I'm becoming genuinely concerned about some of the larger operations which require current and increasing levels of resources as infrastructure ages further.

Hence the question; When will you be sustainable (i.e. pay your own way) in terms of 18 miles of 200 year old infrastructure?. All your major liabilities are likely to require renewal in the not too distant future. Bridge 30 the tip of the ieberg. You could cost the taxpayer millions in the next decades quite easily....

At the moment you have an impressive leagacy. if nowt changes, a lot of our HRP infrastructure, loco's and skills will die with the current crop of Vols. simple as.

Sustainability is not something you can buy, bequeath or achieve under current conditions.

Seriously, this is not a partisan statement. nor is it specifically aimed at NYMR. The industry at large has to find a way to meet the younger ones halfway - they know how to think in terms of frameworks, and in some respects they often know more than you. These attributes seem to be left unrecognised though in certain, particulaly masculine, experience-based environments.

What they do lack the practical knowhow. There are enough willing, but maintaining the current statusquo when you're mainly in your 60's is not a path to sustainability.

Simple as.


Or has the industry really only been interested in more and more impressive loco's and carriages and ignoring infrastructure renewal since the mid 1970's , hence the several "crises" which have occurred in recent years?

Or is that a question for others to answer?

[Ricgough]

Also, unless one hires contractors I accept that finding suitably experienced and qualified volunteers among the rank and file of an organisation to hold back the tide of corrosion might be a problem. Having said that, I was impressed by some of the bridge repair and preventative maintenance work that was carried out on at least one of the bridges on the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway's extension to Broadway in the past year or two.

A belated Happy New year to you all.


BR 30 had been looming for longer than you realise, and the probems went a lot deeper than a bit of supeficial rust on the non - structural bits you could see from the train. The track was slewed so that is was central over the main girder about 20 years ago, thus easing the strain on the structure. Even then, it was clearly understood that this was not a permanent solution. Similar structures on the EVL have/ are being replaced, and have had severe restrictions on them for a while.

There's no point in spending out on maintenance for something that's slated for renewal. If you look elsewhere on the line, you will see evidence of preventative measures being put in place.

Good job YWR have bitten off a realistic initial stretch and at least 1 ground-works company with a track record for HRP work have made a philantropic pledge simply because the CEO and his wife "wants to see it happen" isn't it?

[E&W Lucas]

Absence nowt to do with a rather embarrassing "shunt" at all?

No, better things to be doing, and it's been so quiet on here, I thought you'd all packed up and gone home!

As for the "shunt", there's been a memo put out about that to all operators of Gresley rolling stock, concerning a previously uninvisaged failing of the handbrake mechanism.

So, you're saying you're now "sustainable" in terms of loco's

Didn't say we were; more taking steps to ensure that we become so. As stated, an expensive and time consuming process.

You could cost the taxpayer millions in the next decades quite easily....

That woiuld be quite an impressive, and unlikely piece of fundraising. (and I notice that you have lowered your estimate from earlier!). Don't forget that a large heritage attraction generates quite a lot of tax revenue, directly and indirectly, too.

I can't be bothered to argue with the rest of it; the usual anti - successful railway prejudice that we have come to expect.

Good job YWR have bitten off a realistic initial stretch and at least 1 ground-works company with a track record for HRP work have made a philantropic pledge simply because the CEO and his wife "wants to see it happen" isn't it?

More aimed at the rest of the group - Why on earth aren't you publicising practical steps forward like this?
Success breeds success, and all that. Make some noise if you're starting to make some progress!
There was a question about meeting times a while ago, and there was no answer?